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Hello
I am meeting up with a potential client who is a self employed live sound engineer. Im in a bit of a panic as hes been self employed for 3 years and now wants a bookkeeper. Was hoping someone could give me advice on what i should ask and what information i will need. Also what should i take with me as i dont want to bombard him and make him feel like he cant say no if he doesnt want me to do his books.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks
Zoe
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If you drop me an e mail on adrian.jones@tfmcentre.co.uk I will drop you a line back.
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- Companion Fellow PM.Dip
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zoe123said:
“Hello
I am meeting up with a potential client who is a self employed live sound engineer. Im in a bit of a panic as hes been self employed for 3 years and now wants a bookkeeper. Was hoping someone could give me advice on what i should ask and what information i will need. Also what should i take with me as i dont want to bombard him and make him feel like he cant say no if he doesnt want me to do his books.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks
Zoe
”
Hi Zoe
Just to clarify. I do not mean to single you out, but there have been quite a few posts like this.
I sure some members will not like my view . I have now had clients comment to me about the questions on the ICB Forum,. Hence my reason for the response. We are supposed to be coming across as professional.
There are 2 issues here. Whilst I think it is okay for this question to be asked when you are not taking on a client, and you are trying to learn which the forum is an excellent way to learn.
I have a lot of concern that you are taking on a client.
I really feel you should not be doing this type of work. If you are doing self assessements then I feel you should not need to ask this question.
I appreciate you may have done the self assessment examination, but I still think this is not fair on the client. I also believe this to be an ongoing ICB issue. Potential clients do read this forum. If I was a client I would not be happy that someone was charging me and asking this question.
Zoe I do not mean pick on you as an individual but there has been so many questions recently like this. Yes I believe you will get the experience eventually . I encourage you to do so by working as bookkepper first before you take on self assessement.
See response below
Edited at 03 Jan 2013 07:19 PM GMT
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hi sarah
That is fine you are entitled to your opinion. I have worked hard for my qualifications and am quite young and although lacking in experience am hoping to make a success in this profession.i understand what you are saying however this was potentially my first proper client and was just lacking in confidence and didn't want to get stuff wrong, and your post isnt very encouraging for people that are working hard to try and make a success for themselves. everyone has to start somewhere and replys like yours are quite off putting for people starting out and make me not want to ask stuff on the forums. Like I said your entitled to your opinion.
Regards
Zoe
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Hi Zoe,
You dont say if he has an accountant already who has been putting the accounts together and then doing the tax return (maybe you dont know as yet, this should be something you want to ask).
You need to have a clear idea of what you want to do, what hours you can spare, if you want to work from home or their premises. Remember this is a two way discussion and you need to be able to decide if you want HIM as a client. Remember it is not always the case that a clients is better than no clients.
You need to assess the size of the job and ask what systems, if any, are in place.
The most important thing is to not commit to anything, always say you will go home and put a proposal, with prices, together and get back to them. You dont want to commit to deliver something for a price you cant afford to in the heat of the moment.
Hope this helps somewhat.
Nick
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NickCraggssaid:
“Hi Zoe,
You dont say if he has an accountant already who has been putting the accounts together and then doing the tax return (maybe you dont know as yet, this should be something you want to ask).
You need to have a clear idea of what you want to do, what hours you can spare, if you want to work from home or their premises. Remember this is a two way discussion and you need to be able to decide if you want HIM as a client. Remember it is not always the case that a clients is better than no clients.
You need to assess the size of the job and ask what systems, if any, are in place.
The most important thing is to not commit to anything, always say you will go home and put a proposal, with prices, together and get back to them. You dont want to commit to deliver something for a price you cant afford to in the heat of the moment.
Hope this helps somewhat.
Nick”
Hi Nick
Thanks for getting back to me. I am meeting him at the weekend so will be finding out then if he has an accountant. Im going to see what exactly he wants doing and if i feel confident then i will do what you said and go home and put a proposal togather. Thanks for the advice it was greatly appreciated.
Zoe
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Hi Zoe
I understand you are young and we all young as well when we started out in any career path. I don,t see anything wrong in having a lack of confidence as we alll did when we first started out.
But I still think you should try and get more experience before completing clients Self Assesments. I started out like yourself and I worked in every area of accounts and learnt from loads of people on the way. I was not trying to have a go at you but you have to ask yourself how would you feel if you were the client.
A lot of members here also worked hard for their qualfications. I am sorry if I misunderstood your question as you did not list any ideas of what you thought you would do yourself so that any one could add to your thoughts to help you.
Zoe I have always believed in a mentoring serivice wihich some disagree with and I do it for some of the members in private and yes I understand you are trying to learn . I just think it is more important that you gain more experience or you let the client know your skills and do this one at a cheaper rate till you learn.
I started out on an apprentice Salary and I told people that I was just starting out.
Edited at 03 Jan 2013 07:21 PM GMT
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sarahsaid:
“Hi Zoe
I understand you are young and we all young as well when we started out in any career path. I don,t see anything wrong in having a lack of confidence as we alll did when we first started out.
But I still think you should try and get more experience before completing clients Self Assesments. I started out like yourself and I worked in every area of accounts and learnt from loads of people on the way. I was not trying to have a go at you but you have to ask yourself how would you feel if you were the client.
A lot of members here also worked hard for their qualfications. I am sorry if I misunderstood your question as you did not list any ideas of what you thought you would do yourself so that any one could add to your thoughts to help you.
Zoe I have always believed in a mentoring serivice wihich some disagree with and I do it for some of the members in private and yes I understand you are trying to learn . I just think it is more important that you gain more experience or you let the client know your skills and do this one at a cheaper rate till you learn.
I started out on an apprentice Salary and I told people that I was just starting out.
Edited at 03 Jan 2013 07:21 PM GMT”
I have not even said that i will be doing self assessments, and will not as i am not qualified to do so. I was only doing work that i was qualified to do in.Without being rude but you are just assuming that i was going to do self assessments and that i wasnt going to let the client know my skills or charge them at a cheaper rate. I feel confident in doing the bookkeeping side of things i just wanted to know how people deal with there first client.
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Hi Zoe
Fair comment. I did assume you were going to to do self assessement. As you mentioned he was self employed. My assumption was based on the fact that usually a self employed person does not have an accountant and bookkeeper as this would be very expensive to have both .
Of course I will stand corrected if this is not case as I also made the assumption that he would be Limited if his business had a high turnover which would be of beneifit him tax wise. Therefore there would be potential bookkeeping work for you to do.
I also mentioned that you might get more help if you had put forward ideas of what you you thought you should do as well. As this would have also helped and allowed other forum member to have some interaction and a discussion with other forum users.
Also in relation to your comments about the self assessment there are no letters after names so you could have done this module and be qualified.
Edited at 03 Jan 2013 07:48 PM GMT
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Can I just ask Sarah, why you would assume that a self employed person would be a limited company. As you aware these are totally different animals. I would think that should it be a limited company the accounts would now be possibly two years late for submission and therefore had incurred substantial penalties and it would be unlikely that the company would not have been struck off by now.
Where did Zoe mention high turnover - there is nothing I can see that does. Equally high turnover in itself would not reflect high profit and therefore the associated possible tax benefits that you infur.
Would it also not be possible for a person to have a bookkeeper keep the day to day accounting records but to submit their own self assessment returns.
I also think that you responses do indirecly give the pros and cons of a memtoring service. In my case I was in the accountancy profession in both practice and industry for 30 years before taking exams to become a member of this Institute. May I enquire what good a memtoring service would have been for me although I had only just passed the exams. I can remember about a year ago when memtoring was discussed on the forum one of the fellows suggested that it should be compulsory. It has advantages for some newly qualified bookkeepers but would definitely not be right for others.
Edited at 03 Jan 2013 08:31 PM GMT
Edited at 03 Jan 2013 08:41 PM GMT
Edited at 03 Jan 2013 08:46 PM GMT
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Hi Zoe, Don't get down about this. We all start somewhere and while the text books and exams are great at teaching us the priciples of bookkeeping sadly they lack in the skills of actually running a business and the practice management side. This is something I have long thought that ICB should do something about. That said, we are where we are.
As Nick says treat the initial client meeting as a discussion about the potential client and their business. It's your chance to get to know the client a bit and try to guage the amount of work involved. Try just to have a chat and not worry about prices running through your head. My first question to myself is does this seem like someone I would like to work with? Given that they have taken time out to meet you, this client is yours if you want them. Don't feel like you need to sell yourself to them, equally don't think you need to say yes just because you don't have any other clients.
Personally I'd take a pen and pad and thats all. I've never taken certificates to meeting and never actually been asked for them. Potential clients generally accept that you are an expert in your field (rightly or wrongly). You can download a 'new client form' from www.bkpr.co.uk if you want to get a few details from them. You'll maybe want to discuss your prices towards the end of the meeting, or you may want to email them later in the day with a quote. Equally you may discuss how the work will be carried out, packages used, your terms and where the work will be carried out.
I disagree with Sarah that you should take a lesser rate for this work as it's your first client. I beleive this is a fundamental flaw that many of us make with our first clients. Equally I don't think you need to discuss that he is your first unless he asks. I wouldn't lie, but wouldn't volunteer the information. You are qualified, what relevance is it?
Try not to panic too much. They hardest job has been done, you have the meeting.
And now to Sarah - Dear oh dear. What a number of assumptions you have made here.
Never did Zoe say she was doing a self assessment for the client. You assume a sole trader wouldn't want a bookkeeper and accountant. My main client base is sole traders and more than a few still have an accountant as well as me. You completely misread/misunderstood Zoe's question. It does not appear to me that she was asking for technical advice but more was worried about actually meeting the client.
You encourage her to do bookkeeping, thats what she's doing. The first time self assessment was mentioned was by yourself. You mention that Limited Company has tax benefits, do you think you are qualified to give a client such advice? I have many clients with higher turnovers still working as sole traders for a number of reasons, this is not stange for me.
Regards
Kris
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Hi Kris
Dear oh Dear me. You do give me a chuckle. I gave my reasons to Zoe as to why I made my views and also tried to have a discussion as well. You may have read the question differently but I explained to Zoe how I read her question hence my views and hence your views for the way you have read the question. So I don,t see any problem in us having different views.
I strongly stand my view there was no input from Zoe at all. If Zoe wanted a confidence boost then that is all she needed to say. For example I am nervous about meeting my first client.
" Was hoping someone could give me advice on what i should ask and what information i will need. Also what should i take with me''
There is no mention about confidence here.
Sarah Said
"Of course I will stand corrected if this is not case as I also made the assumption that he would be Limited if his business had a high turnover which would be of beneifit him tax wise. Therefore there would be potential bookkeeping work for you to do. "
Adrian I was answering Zoe statement that she was only doing bookkeeping and not self assesment. I understand it was not clear. I do know Zoe did not say they were Ltd or had high turnover. I mention this a part of discussion. I also noted Zoe comment that she was not doing self assessment. I answered Zoe;s remarks and I noted by saying Fair comment that she never said she was doing self assessment.
Most business do not pay for an accountant and bookkeeper for small turnovers. I do agree with Kris some will but most don,t.
Yes Kris I do have the experience to advice through all my qualifications not just in the UK. I also have a team of tax advisors who are Chartered Accountants whom I work in partnership with and who complete all tax advice for my clients. Everyone has clients who have high turnover and want to remain self employed but that is there choice and not nessarily the most tax efficient.
Please Note All circumstances of all individuals would need to known before any tax advisor can give advise and I am not giving tax advise here. For the purposes of this thread this is a generic discussion.
I acknowledge some of you feel Zoe has said that she asked the question to help her confidence. Zoe you did not bring up the confidence till further in the thread. I stand by my view if you don,t know what to bring our ask your new client then you are not experienced enough. It does not matter if you are doing bookkeeping or (self assessement which I know Zoe your not ) . I will continue to stand by my view.
But I do acknowledge that there are others who do not agree. As far as I am concerned just more opinions for everyone including clients who may read this to consider. Life would be boring if we all agreed.
To be honest I don,t care if someone pays you whatever rate you want. As I have always said good on you if you can get it. All I would say is I would not pay the top rate as a client if I came across this question.
Adrian I do not believe mentoring should be compulsory but I do think it is a service the ICB should consider offering for any members who may want it. If you don,t want it that is up to the individual but there are plenty who have asked for it.
Edited at 03 Jan 2013 11:49 PM GMT
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I'm glad I give you a laugh Sarah. Interesting that everyone else in the thread realised what was happening except you who went off at a mental tangent.
I'm glad you can offer advice, the rest of us mere mortals tend to need to stick to the ICB rules.
Kris
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I do stick to the ICB rules. I am extremely cafeful to do so.
Edited at 04 Jan 2013 12:19 PM GMT
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